The Faceoff

[Dhalsim007]

Really liked Chris Hall's article on "The Faceoff". Here's a quote:

Of course the easiest way to gain an advantage in this facet of the game is to have a very good draw man. One only needs to take a quick glance at the stats to this point in the schedule to realize that Philadelphia’s Geoff Snider is dominating the category. He’s winning his face-offs at a monstrous .730 clip at this writing and the Wings just happen to be 5-0.

That face-off stat should obviously be bringing a big smile to the face of head coach Dave Huntley. Knowing that 3 out of 4 times there’s a face-off you’re going to be in possession of the ball is comforting news. And to make things even better, Snider’s back-up Peter Jacobs is winning at a .710 pace.

What I would like to see is an official NLL stat category for "Faceoff Conversion", and how many goals are scored in the possession directly after a team's faceoff win.

In the Minnesota-Philadelphia matchup this weekend, the Wings dominated that fourth quarter with an 11-1 goal advantage, but most of those goals came off of faceoff wins by Jacobs and Snider. There was no way for the Swarm to right their sinking ship, because they couldn't get the ball back.

Thoughts?

[JSap]

Get ready for all of the posts explaining how faceoffs really aren't important! But I think you hit the nail on the head - in a situation where your offense is clicking, winning 75% of the faceoffs can be devastating... If your offense isn't clicking (see the 2007 Wings), then winning all of those faceoffs really doesn't help much.

[JSap]

Oh, and one other thing - it should be a great matchup Friday with Snider vs. Hanford... Is this the first time they have matched up?

[rnsykes]

It's kinda like a snowball rolling down hill. The Swarm really couldn't get the ball back. But like Jsap said if you team doing bad, it's of little effect.

[silvanthalas]

Get ready for all of the posts explaining how faceoffs really aren't important!

Well, when the Mammoth were 4-0, I commented to Coach McMahon after the game how I don't agree with his philosophy that the face-offs aren't that important. But, I also said it was hard to argue with the results to that point. :D

Yeah, you need guys who can pick up the loose balls, regardless, but having somebody that can help control that ball from the start has always been important to me. We could be 7-0 right now and I'd still want to see us improve our face-off winning percentage (which for the Mammoth sits just under 49% on the season), because it means more offensive possessions, and that means you have more chances to score and your opponents do not.

[snowkitten]

I think the success of the face-off really had a lot to do with who they have backing them up. Hanford with Jalbert was awesome and an almost guaranteed face-off win. But without Jalbert, Hanford didn't have the same chemistry with anyone on the team and it wasn't unusual to see him picking up the loose ball. I don't think face-offs are the final determining factor, but winning them doesn't hurt. :cool:

[rnsykes]

It is the final determining factor when there is less than two minutes left and your team is up by one or two. If you can't get possession, then you can come from behind.

[BARKS DAWG]

FOGO guys are key


just ask Brad Mac Arthur :D

[dougm]

good point about hanford as i assume he has park as his wingman

snider is unique in that he controls the draw, not just flings it back. that makes him extra special at the x/dot.
however, no matter who you have doing the draw, the wingmen are critical. the 2006 mll champion barrage w/ cantabene steamrolled the entire league because paul had guys like matt zash and greg peyser. its not all about just one player but its a unit.
and as if geoff and pete were enough, you give him the likes of rob van beek on the flank and its total domination.

[BARKS DAWG]

faceoffs are so key


how many goals have you seen right off the draw ?????

[Rockman]

Is there a place to read all of these Chris Hall articles in one place? I looked on IL.com but could only find a couple.:confused:

[GCTales]

NLLInsider.com.... (or click the home button on the top left of this screen)

[McSwarmFan]

At what point does having won the most recent faceoff no longer have a beneficial/detrimental impact on the play that follows?

I could make a case for 30 seconds, until the SC is reset? But it could be until a goal is scored or posession changes?

If one were to consider time between goals and goals following the starts of the quarters as a way to determine the impact of a draw win, what length of time could be considered the point at which the previous faceoff no longer mattered? (Game sheets would be the source of info, because I would not have access to all of the video footage etc.)

I was looking back at the score sheets from 2005 to this season. The 2005 sheets do not record FO records. 2006 does. I take that to mean that there is some feeling that FO stats are important. The interesting thing to me is that the person getting credit for a FO win has only done half of the work. The person getting the Loose Ball, does the other half; but the second player is not given a FO assist, just a loose ball. Even more frustraiting for drawmen has to be that, even it the ball/pass goes right where it is designed to - if a player from the other team recovers the LB the opposing FO=man gets the credit.

[mtbf]

One of the key components of every NLL game that doesn’t prompt a great deal of discussion is the face-off.:rotfl: does not come here much does he

Just because you don’t have a top-notch draw man doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t be a top team in the league. The Buffalo Bandits have probably been the best example of this over the past few seasons. They haven’t had a dominant face-off guy for awhile but always seem to manage to be at or near the top of the standings. What’s the reason? Well, good wing play for one. Guys like Mark Steenhuis and Pat McCready are great at getting to the loose ball and gaining possession.

here he seems to admit it is not necessary to win faceoffs. I still say give me a real player instead of a FOGO if you have Snider fine win faces offs but I do not see wasting a roster spot on a player who is gonna sit for 55 minutes a game.

[dougm]

mtbf;
i don't think anyone is asking for the return of bill dirrgl - fogo and only fogo but was the best fo guy in the mill/nll until geoff snider. all we are saying is that there are players that can run and be effective @ the dot. is a goon who can't score worth more than a f/o guy who can't score. is jamie hackel worth any more or less than say chris cercy { last pure fogo i can recall in this league } i would contend that they both fail as both sit for 55 mins until they get to do their thang.

actually, some of the top drawmen in the league are very competent runners like cantabene, jacobs, hanford, snider -- they last. its just that some teams view the whole idea of f/o as last on their laundry list.

[JSap]

Congrats to Hanford - he won the faceoff battle with Snider, but it was close - Snider won 12 and lost 14, but one of those wins was against Rory Smith before their big fight, so I think it was 14-11 for Hanford... Two more meetings, hopefully Snider figures him out before the next one!

[mtbf]

um
wings 33-4 on face offs
Bandits 21-12 on scoreboard

[silvanthalas]

um
wings 33-4 on face offs
Bandits 21-12 on scoreboard

And if you think 1 game makes an excellent sampling, I'd like to sell you some oceanside property in Kansas.

[mtbf]

3-4 against philly
Bandits are 27-15 in last three seasons without winning the face offs in a single game

[coachcam]

Nice rebound for snider tonight going 33-34 on faceoffs. Losing one is pretty dam impressive

[mtbf]

Nice rebound for snider tonight going 33-34 on faceoffs. Losing one is pretty dam impressive

the one he lost was a tech violation the ball got stuck in his stick
but the Bandits did not contest the face offs the drill was Sanderson would set then force a tech violation and then the Bandits would defend

[laxidaisical]

The wings lost because they yielded 9 PP goals, Blazer had a bad performance, and the Buffalo D was excellent.

The Bandits didn't bother trying to win the draw because they know that if they tried to win it on those 34 tries, they still would have come out with only one win.

[RockStar#666]

And if you think 1 game makes an excellent sampling, I'd like to sell you some oceanside property in Kansas.

Not just one game.

See Wings last year - Snider 75%, Wings lose 10 and finish out of playoffs.

Winning faceoffs is cool, but it sure ain't as important as some folks make it out to be.

[JohnnyMogul]

Not just one game.

See Wings last year - Snider 75%, Wings lose 10 and finish out of playoffs.

Winning faceoffs is cool, but it sure ain't as important as some folks make it out to be.


Scoring goals is important!!!! Winning faceoffs is a good way to get opportunities to do such.... wings didn't capitalize on that at all... end of debate. :p

[snowkitten]

The interesting thing to me is that the person getting credit for a FO win has only done half of the work. The person getting the Loose Ball, does the other half; but the second player is not given a FO assist, just a loose ball. Even more frustraiting for drawmen has to be that, even it the ball/pass goes right where it is designed to - if a player from the other team recovers the LB the opposing FO=man gets the credit.

This is rather in line with what I was saying about Hanford initially. How important is the face-off if your team isn't the one to recover the loose ball? When Hanford and Jalbert were together, you always knew without a doubt when Hanford won the face-off because the majority of the time it was Jalbert coming away with it racing to the goal. But when Jalbert didn't come back because of his concussions, there was a noticeable impact with the face-offs. The other team came away with many of the face-offs that Hanford won negating any advantage created by him winning them. In essence, a fogo guy is only as good and as productive as his face-off team.

[RockStar#666]

.....In essence, a fogo guy is only as good and as productive as his face-off team.

Yup. With few exceptions*, box faceoff wins are really as much a team stat as an individual one.

(*i.e. Snider who wins most to himself)

[laxidaisical]

i.e. any real faceoff guy who has any skill, which there are few of in box because it is not prioritized