Collins, Wetherup, and Hanford all cut

[mtbf]

01/20/2009
ROCHESTER KNIGHTHAWKS: Placed Marshall Abrams and Pat Cougevan on the Active Roster from the Hold Out List. Released Derek Collins and Jamie Hanford.
01/17/2009
ROCHESTER KNIGHTHAWKS: Signed Dan Elliott, Stuart Hill and Ben VanEvery to two-year contracts. Signed Jamie Hanford to a one-year contract. Placed Marshall Abrams and Pat Cougevan on the Hold Out List. Placed Joel McCready on the Injured Reserve List. Released Phil Wetherup.

Looks like Pat must be back
The NLL has to change rules on the hold out list at this point the hawks are using it to protect extra players. Just because you need to miss games you are not a hold out. This is a flagrant violation of the spirit of the rule.
I suggest player on the hold out list must stay there for 8 games once the season starts

[bdaly]

Glad they took care of the goaltending situation; that was the right move. It's better to take their lumps with a prospect than a journeyman. But, having released both, does this mean O'Toole will at least dress this weekend?

[Wings-4-Life]

Hmmm.... Hanford was one of the few bright sports this weekend.

[WINGS4EVER]

Wow ....I wonder if next game abrams will hold out again and Jaime will be signed again


This is turning into a circus

[Wings-4-Life]

Originally Posted by WINGS4EVER

Wow ....I wonder if next game abrams will hold out again and Jaime will be signed again


This is turning into a circus

You're right. I feel like I should pay a dollar to watch the team sit in a cage.

[mtbf]

I feel like I should pay a dollar to watch the team sit in a cage.

good one

[chuckster]

This is the 2nd move of Abrams from the Hold Out list.

On Nov. 25 he was placed on the Protected Player List
Signed to a contract on Dec. 1
He was placed on the Hold Out list Dec. 9
Went to the Active roster Jan. 14
Back to the Hold Out list Jan. 17
Went to the Active roster Jan. 20

That's alot of movement for 1 player. The real Marshall Plan may have been simpler -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

[Hollywood42]

rochester fans better hope otoole can bail them out of the dungeon another lack luster game this weekend
and rochester wont win more then 4 and thats being seriously generous at this point

[mtbf]

They are just hiding him he should have to take a space on the active roster or be released since he plans on playing this season. The Wings do not move Nads to the hold out list every time he has to coach

[WINGS4EVER]

nope but thanks for the idea mike
I will pass that on to management friday night......

[RP=BA]

This team needs a freakin' reality show.

I'd watch it every night

[WINGNUT90]

Originally Posted by RP=BA

This team needs a freakin' reality show.

I'd watch it every night

"FLIGHT OF THE HAWK"

who gets voted off this week ?

[Little Feet]

I don't think mtbf fully understands what the holdout list is or what it does.

[The_Vukster]

How can a player who signed a contract be on a hold out list? Or a guy who's played already?

And why would they sign Hanford for 1 game and cut him right away?? Poor D?? Poor attitude?? It's not like we have even a half-way decent face off guy right now.

[The_Vukster]

Originally Posted by Little Feet

I don't think mtbf fully understands what the holdout list is or what it does.

Care to elaborate on what the hold out list is or what it does?

[toros_00]

I wonder how Pat will play upon returning to injury?

Rusty?

Who knows, but I hope he is over the injury, putting a goalie back to early can lead to more injuries.

[FixThis]

Originally Posted by Little Feet

I don't think mtbf fully understands what the holdout list is or what it does.

Idiot boy.....go away....really!

[ammispapa]

Originally Posted by Little Feet

I don't think mtbf fully understands what the holdout list is or what it does.

" Uhhh.... What ????? I didn't think anyone would call me on it when I opened my mouth....Can't we all just forget I said anything???? So nice weather we're having ain't it Uhhh Ahhahaha . " Jeeez can't you just wipe the diarrhea off your chin and quit letting it run out of your mouth.

Originally Posted by The_Vukster

Care to elaborate on what the hold out list is or what it does?

[mtbf]

I don't think mtbf fully understands what the holdout list is or what it does.

As I stated I understand it fine however it is being abused and the rules need o be changed?

How can a player who signed a contract be on a hold out list?

a player must have a signed contract to be on the hold out list. Otherwise he is a protected player if he does not qualify as an UFA

[Corporal]

Definitely agree with mtbf on this or at least I think I do.

This description of the various lists was posted by Mammoth GM Steve Govett on the Mammoth message board. It looks like Rochester is following the letter of the law somewhat but the spirit of law definitely seems abused. Teams are only allowed to dress 18 of 23 active rosters players per game, but Rochester is using the hold out list as an additional reserve squad not as a designation to protect players that are unable to play for an extended period of time due to work obligations.

http://www.coloradomammoth.com/forum...opic.php?t=927

Most of the inactive player lists are to designate the status of a player for various reasons that mostly have to do with free agency within the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

The active roster is 23 players and up to three practice players.

The designations within the inactive list are as follows:

Injured Reserve
Draft List
Protected Player List
Physically Unable to Perform List
Hold Out List
Retired Player List

The Injured Reserve or IR is where a player is moved if they have sustained an injury that will take longer than three weeks to heal. The placement on that list is always retroactive to the date of the injury. The Player must remain there for at least 21 days and can be replaced on the active 23 man roster. When the player returns after at least 21 days, you must remove a player from the active roster to make room for the injured player.

The Draft List is where a player would go if he is drafted and unable to or doesn't want to play. Nenad Gajic was on this list for San Jose while he was playing hockey, he then decided to play for us. Players will stay on this list for 2 years from the time they are drafted before they can choose to go elsewhere as a free agent. Within the two years they remain the property of the team that drafted them and can sign to play with them anytime.

The Protected Player List are players that are not eligible for unrestricted free agency that decide in the offseason that they are not going to play for their designated team. If they return they can only return to the team that they were on originally. If they qualify for restricted free agency they can try to sign elsewhere but the team that owns their rights has the right to match. This would apply to players that choose not to play but that are NOT under contract with their team but their rights are owned by the team in question. This would apply to Jay Jalbert and Mike Law.

The Physically Unable to Perform List applies only to players that got hurt outside of their duties to the team. For example in the summer time playing for another team or they fell off their roof cleaning leaves out of the gutter. These players are not under contract at the time of the injury and are unable to perform for the team. The team would not lose their rights in this situation.

The Hold Out List is for players that sign a contract with the team and then for one reason or another can't fulfill that committment. Sometimes players sign a contract and then move because of their job and can't play, sometimes they play some games and the situation changes where they can't attend games for the remainder of the season. These players are put on the inactive roster and remain there until such time as they can fulfill their committment or become free agents.

The Retired list is for players that have signed documents suggesting their retirement. They still remain the property of the team in perpetuity until they become eligible for free agency.

Any of these players and practice players can be activated after the roster deadline as long as they are recorded in your system. This is why you will see a great many ancillary roster moves done in the next two days. We have until Thursday to finalize our rosters. The trade deadline is just that, the final deadline where you can trade between teams, the roster deadline is two days later in order to clean up loose ends with any personel.

You will see some teams sign goalies to their practice roster, if a goalie on the active roster is hurt or suspended after the roster deadline you can only activate someone in your system. Most teams that carry only two goalies on the 23 man roster have a goalie on the practice roster.

Hopefully this answers your questions.

[The_Vukster]

Ahhh...I see. Thanks for the info Corporal. You always hear about NFL players "Holding Out" for more money, before joining the team. I assumed that was what the Hold Out list pertained to in the NLL, players "holding out" for a better contract. Apparently it is completely different though.

Based upon the description above, it does seem that the guidelines regarding the Hold Out list are rather loose. I have seen a few other situations like this in a number of sports including lacrosse.

It's a tough call. While everyone involved may know what the true spirit, purpose, or intention of the rule is, isn't it the job of the owner, GM, coaches, and/or players to do everything within their power and within the constraints of the rules to assemble the best team and put the best product on the floor? If they don't, they are only doing a disservice to the team and it's fans. Sports is a business. And things like this go on every day in the business world (i.e. loopholes).

The rule needs to be better defined so that it more clearly can only be used in the true spirit it was intended for.

[Haftalax]

So, would you be as terse if JT, Steenhuis and Thompson or Montour all were out and Accursi and Delby had family or work commitments the first month of the season?

Somehow, I'm thinking not and you will not see changes to these rules, especially if you think it's because we the fans have anything to say about it.

You make this a full time league and I'll take your opinions differently, until then, we will make due just as every other team in this part time league does.

Knabber da certainly hate the beginning of the season, but at least I see an owner that is doing whatever it takes to try and improve the team given the dire situation on the health front. I wonder if Golisano would even recognize Tavares walking down the street.

[Centurion]

There is a contract. It should be followed. If Roch gets the choice to pick and choose which rules it follows, so should everyone else. Regardless its always ok to voice an opinion.

[borr]

Where is the McLeod kid?
Drafted in 2007. Before his real draft year.
Had a decent "rookie" season.
They protected him.
He had a great summer. Key player on Minto Cup Winner.

Rochester is brutal and he isn't in the lineup.
Why?

[REM]

Originally Posted by Hollywood42

rochester fans better hope otoole can bail them out of the dungeon another lack luster game this weekend
and rochester wont win more then 4 and thats being seriously generous at this point

I'm inclined to agree with you there. If O'Toole is really fit then maybe 4 or 5 wins. But when you score 13 in your best game and you're held to 12 goals in 2 games, it's not just the net that needs mending.